Evoker questions (Revival)

[Wyndrax]

Greetings!

A couple of questions if you don't mind.

0. Thanks a lot for an amazing Revival mod!

1. I read some Evoker guides around the Net (especially this, overall a very comprehensive one: https://hellgate.fandom.com/wiki/Vitero-Doll%27s_Unofficial_Evoker_Strategy_Guide) but I still can't grasp how damage is calculated. Guides tell me that the big number on Focus item is some kind of basic 'weapon rating'. Well, then where can I see the damage rate of the weapon itself and of a spell cast while wielding this weapon?
How can I tell the difference between:
a) damage when using a skill/spell and a Focus weapon with corresponding additional damage/debuff;
b) damage when using a skill/spell and a Focus weapon without corresponding features.

[Kikina the templar]

Hello and thanks,

big number on Focus and other weapons should indicate the quality of the weapon, but in many cases it is more the opinion of the author who invented the weapon. This number is set manually in the program. A different parameter is used to calculate the actual damage. In the case of focus, it is essentially a multiplier of some kind, which you can find out when you open the menu of each weapon and look at the "Power:" parameter.
The damage of individual spells is set separately for each skill and the player cannot find it out. In the same way, the player does not have the possibility to find out the damage of the focus itself (by this i mean the shot that comes out of the focus, if no spell was used). Final damage is calculated according to a complex formula that I personally have never understood. Of course, there are also other things taken into account, such as monster defenses... Basically, there's nothing left to do but try out each weapon and spell and choose what works best.
In Revival, i kept all the skills unchanged, as well as most of the original weapons. All the descriptions that you find on the net and refer to the SP1.2 version should therefore also be valid for Revival.

[Wyndrax]

Thanks for a prompt answer that doesn't clarify much though

So, you say, there is a kind of formula that no one can understand yet. I won't pretend to understand it as well but where can I find it nevertheless?

This strange obscurity might seem interesting to some, to find out and explore the game, builds and such, but for me personally it looks rather like a slight inconvenience while playing my favourite - in all other aspects - HG class.

[Kikina the templar]

Unfortunately, after all these years, i don't remember where the formulas could be found. You would have to take the Reanimator and search all the tables in the data. I still remember that i was also surprised that not all the necessary calculations are in the data, so i am convinced that part is contained directly in the core program.
If you would like to start using the Reanimator, you have the opportunity to find out the real damage of each weapon. I happen to remember this: in table "items", parameters "minBaseDmg" and "maxBaseDmg", firerate is parameter "cdTick" and big damage number on weapon "approxDps".

As for the damage formula, i'd recommend asking some from the London 2038 project, but they don't like moders, so it's much better to contact Bryan directly. This is the person who has the most experience with these things and is happy to help. Maybe if we wait a while he will read it here, and he will say something about it. 

[Wyndrax]

Oh, thanks for such invaluable pieces of information.

I do use Reanimator a little, just for fun, reading some random tables like monster or item names and so on. This game is really special, you can see the amount of toil and creativity and love put into it by the Flagship team. It's a pity that it's never got as high as it truly deserves.
Revival is a treasure for this game, it gives it another life indeed. By the way, do you see by chance any parts of the game that could be probably enhanced or added or modded in some future? Although from my part I could offer only a little involvement like testing or something, sorry; my technical skills are almost nonexistent.

[Kikina the templar]

I don't work on the mod anymore and i don't believe there is anyone else who wants to work on a real SP mod.
At the moment, however, there is an interesting attempt to operate an online client as a single player.
https://hellgateaus.cyou/forum/hellgate-london-modification-downloads/unofficial-london-2038-client-sp-modification-version-1-5-6b/

[Wyndrax]

Oh, I see. Singleplayer now is for old farts like me only

Anyway, thanks again for your tremendous endeavor in Revival. Now this game can be played endlessly, again and again.

[Bryan]

Hi Wyndrax, welcome.

I'm afraid that yes, the Evoker damage calculation is way too complex to make readable. That's likely why no version of the game has yet attempted to make spells read "deals x-y damage" - and it's certainly why 2038 hasn't.
A huge part of that is that data alone doesn't give clear numbers. But for reference, and hopefully some guidance if you do explore this with Reanimator, here are the basic building blocks I can see.

1. Foci damage.
As Kikina said, this is defined in "min Base Dmg" and "max Base Dmg" in items.txt.
(For reference, Harrowing has created custom items to test crit specifically - which is a different beast in itself. If this interests you, either to deduce damage formulas or to delve into crit next, you may find the outline of his work in this post.)

2. Spell damage.
This is defined in "statsSkillEventServer" in skills.txt.
A crucial issue here, strictly discussing base direct damage, is that these numbers don't equate to flat values. "90" wouldn't mean "90 damage" but 90% of the skill's unknown actual damage; so you could split a skill into 90% direct, 10% splash, for example, or go beyond 100% and it still works fine.
But you may still tweak these to test formula hypotheses, hence the mention here.

3. Dual wield.
Once you dual wield foci you also get this factor that affects damage, by reducing each foci's performance to 60%. This is what threads like the one above dub "0.6", and it too factors in.
This state is named "dual_focus" in states.txt, but is not explained there either.

All of these come before crits and added affixes, of course, and should already explain just how complex this system is since data interacts with code. Many data tables are also subject to obscure calculations (like "cd Tick" mentioned by Kikina, where 5120 = 30/m), which only makes this harder.
Still, I hope this helped clarify the bare basics data-wise.

And hey,

asking some from the London 2038 project, but they don't like moders,

We don't object to modders or mod-minded questions, so you can always reach out about this stuff. Contra helped us pinpoint a data issue, for instance, so it's beneficial all in all.
We only mind when people try to mod the MP client (for MP play, not Contra's port), have SP mods mess with their MP installation (which is thankfully covered), or spoil our work for MP players early.
And then there's of course the disagreement in perspective, where SP-minded players insist on diminishing the MP component or otherwise equalizing the two. But that's natural, and we don't mind these discussions.

So please, don't hesitate to reach out - I only grasp the fundamentals of data myself anyway. The worst response you might get should be "I can't answer that", not "begone you meddling modder".

[Wyndrax]

Still, I hope this helped clarify the bare basics data-wise.

Well, it seems I begin to understand what exactly Socrates meant saying 'I know that I know nothing'

Now when I'm overburdened with knowledge (thanks to Bryan's exhaustive explanations) I feel that I know even less than I knew before

The last question left now is what were the reasons of Flagship team, design-wise or gameplay-wise, to have made this system like they did?

[Bryan]

Beats me, honestly, and of course I can only guess. If I had to, I'd pin it down to a lack of time and the escalation of one idea into the next in action.

On the former, perhaps it was deemed "good enough" to release; the average player would still see better foci deal more damage and not delve further into it. No skills that use weapons actually state exact damage numbers either (eg Sword of Reckoning, Shield Bash), so perhaps it was a comfortable precedent for players to just say "more foci power = more spell power" and leave it at that.

On the latter, I could see how the basic idea could have complications in action. What follows is strictly assumptions, mind you.
First, the simple design choice that spells don't just "channel" their focis' power (the way sword skills often simply do "sword damage * Strength bonus * skill multiplier") could just be a concern that foci could then be used as guns - with their inherent properties like sfx and slots making them viable enough to diminish the impact of mana drain, which the class's main stat is built around mitigating instead of increasing actual damage. So out of this alone you have "inherent" spell damage, which only interacts with foci instead of being defined by them (and a main class stat). Then, hypothetically, "we don't have time to design dedicated Shield-style offhands" or "inherent foci attributes would make dual-wielding more fun" or "Hunters and Blademasters already dual-wield" could lead to "we need dual-wield for Evokers". Precedents like "most dual-wielding skills have penalties (eg Rapid Fire, Sword of Justice)" or simple observations that "no other class gets a 100% boost to their whole skillset by dual-wielding" could lead to dual-wielding performance penalties in "0.6", which perhaps couldn't be explained accurately enough to start explaining at all.
With those two in place, and without time to properly flesh it out or simplify it and no room to do so on a live product, we could likely get the current system as it is today.   

Strictly and absolutely my own spontaneous guesses, mind you. I never truly sought to find explanations for this system, nor have I ever discussed it with actual Flagship devs.

[Wyndrax]

With those two in place, and without time to properly flesh it out or simplify it and no room to do so on a live product, we could likely get the current system as it is today.

Indeed, it sounds logical and, perhaps, most possible.

I think that the main point where the mess began might be the idea of 'foci' as a 'channeling' weapon, i.e. weapon that somehow has no own inherent damage - and yet does have it somehow at the same time

[Wyndrax]

In those rare times when I use Laser Pistol the left semi-circle appears at the center of the screen, like a target reticle, with '100%' shown by. What does it mean? It never depletes, diminishes or changes in any other possible way, and it is in no way connected with targeting or shooting monsters, it just appears for a couple of seconds and then disappears, just to reappear later in the same random manner. For example, it can appear and then disappear when I take the Pistol out of hand (when evaluating some new-found weapon) and then take it back again.

I thought it has something to do with Laser Pistol 'shield overload' rate that is 100% exactly but it never changes and seems to have no influence over the Pistol shooting properties.

[Bryan]

This normally denotes that the weapon held/used has an energy bar. Such weapons will have their bars deplete (down to 25% by memory) while they're fired (or swung, if swords), reducing their effectiveness until the player stops to let them recharge.
Laser Pistols do possess this trait - so that it appears on equip is largely normal, as a way to show you it actually has a bar, and that it disappears sounds normal too as the weapon isn't used for it to deplete. But what's not normal is that

it is in no way connected with targeting or shooting monsters

The only reason why I'd imagine it would disappear would be if you've modded it with so many energy depletion rate reduction affixes that depletion is nullified, but I don't believe that's possible with Laser Pistols. Otherwise you might have some visual bug on your hands, where the bar depletes as you shoot but the visual indicator doesn't show it.
Sadly Laser Pistols tend to not deal any decent damage, so testing the latter theory with the naked eye by observing damage output might be quite hard to do.

[Wyndrax]

The only reason why I'd imagine it would disappear would be if you've modded it with so many energy depletion rate reduction affixes that depletion is nullified, but I don't believe that's possible with Laser Pistols. Otherwise you might have some visual bug on your hands, where the bar depletes as you shoot but the visual indicator doesn't show it.
Sadly Laser Pistols tend to not deal any decent damage, so testing the latter theory with the naked eye by observing damage output might be quite hard to do.

No, these all were unmodded pistols, no mods, no augmentations.

To be honest, they seem to deal no damage at all, only stop the enemies still, even the ones with properties quite impressive for the first glance (recently I bought a legendary pistol with looong list of properties but to no avail; it was sold back in twenty minutes). A shame, pistols look cool and shoot cool charges!

[Bryan]

It's indeed a bit of a bummer. Both as regards how they handled Stop within these otherwise good-looking guns, and how little use Evokers may find for guns. Not that there are no Gunvoker builds, but Foul Recoil did make me expect much more viable foci+gun builds back in the day.