Author Topic: higher feed costs?  (Read 2124 times)

DokEnkephalin

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higher feed costs?
« on: Apr 08, 2024; 06:52 am »
Have stat feed costs increased in any of the updates? I'm retrying my bullet spammer build, and I can't get the eq loadout that I remember having around the same stage of the game. It's also a much tougher and less fun slog than I remember, because I can't equip the weapons that would make the most use of the build plan.

Bryan

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #1 on: Apr 08, 2024; 01:13 pm »
This depends on which version of the game you're playing and which version you're comparing it to. In general, all versions saw some feed changes; TCv4 (and later 2038) changed from the original for various reasons, and Global changed from the original to realign feeds with affix groups and facilitate its shop and Forge. SP mods don't usually modify them but may do so to accommodate better SP play, and Steam may have changed its feeds from Global for similar reasons (although I believe it did not). Steam mods are their own beast, as well, as some have raised the Forge's ceiling and have thus skyrocketed maximum item feeds (unless they have also adjusted feeds in turn).

If you're playing an SP mod (since this post is made in the SP section), these don't usually increase feeds compared to the original - but a specific one may have, where its own patch notes would have the answer. Unless you're comparing one to Global/Steam, in which case it may be that Global/Steam decreased specific feeds compared to the original's respective ones (although unlikely).

TL;DR answers will hinge entirely on which version of the game you're playing and which version you're comparing it to.
« Last Edit: Apr 08, 2024; 01:15 pm by Bryan »
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true for the 2018 Steam version.

DokEnkephalin

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #2 on: Apr 16, 2024; 03:16 pm »
After a few successful builds, I retried this one and noticed I'd settled for a lot of affixes that didn't benefit it, but burdened the stat feeds. I'm unsure how to fix it at this point, but I'm reluctant to restart because this is the only character who's managed to get the cube drop.

Bryan

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #3 on: Apr 16, 2024; 06:42 pm »
the only character who's managed to get the cube drop.
Ah, so you're playing the Steam version. In that case, feed changes you may observe will have been the devs' choices - and your best option to remedy them would likely be to seek out a relevant mod.
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true for the 2018 Steam version.

DokEnkephalin

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #4 on: Apr 17, 2024; 06:43 pm »
Or just save-scum augs and get rid of gear with unneeded affixes, like other builds did. iirc that what I did in the past. This isn't any special case.

Bryan

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #5 on: Apr 17, 2024; 07:28 pm »
That's an option, sure. I suggested mods as they'd remove the item-by-item hassle by actually addressing the issue - but such mods might well not exist at the moment, since fixing feeds somehow does not seem to have been much of a priority so far. As far as I've seen anyway.
"Dream big and crash often"
-Omerta

List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true for the 2018 Steam version.

DokEnkephalin

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #6 on: Apr 19, 2024; 03:14 am »
I gotta ask -- what the sh-t is the point of multiple weapon load-outs? What is the point of all these novelty weapons? Why can't I just play with a tentacle flinger for awhile? Because all of my stat feeds are going into the weapons that are optimal. I'm fully locked into that and not else beside that, no matter no much fun the developers thought they were, no matter how much fun they might actually be but I'll never know, because they're locked out by stat demands. What a waste.

[ED: language toned down]
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2024; 04:09 pm by DokEnkephalin »

Bryan

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #7 on: Apr 19, 2024; 11:19 am »
I do understand the frustration and can share the sentiment, but please tone down the language: https://hellgateaus.cyou/forum/register/

Now, Global did mishandle the feed system, and apparently Steam did not correct its course for a singleplayer environment. Perhaps expectedly. The initial point of novelty weapons was for them to be fun and different, and the point of different weapon loadouts was to facilitate different sets for different encounters - like the relevant loading tip used to say in the original, if it does not now in Steam.
The only use case left for the latter in Global, that I remember, was different caste crit mods (in otherwise identical/similar weapons, which would not be prevented by different stat demands). And there *might* still be a use case in AoE vs single-target weapons (eg BMs wanting splash swords for crowds and single-target swords for bosses) or sfx vs other attributes (eg Cabalists wanting Glyphs for crowds/crit or Claws for sfx/stun). OR in cases where one really invests in the Forge (eg a +15 AoE gun set could exceed the performance of Grenades and possibly Strikes, depending on how they tweaked that interaction to function).
But the whole system *was* largely mishandled. Base feeds were quite high, presumably and likely in part to promote the purchases of relevant Cash shop items. The Forge system increases already high feeds, too, before all the other issues it creates - which, alongside the crit fixation and ACC granting so much CDB, was what likely created the trend toward +stat items. And while there's a great point to make that feeds prevent excessive player power (by eg requiring STR for +splash mods which reduces max ACC and thus CDB, or requiring ample WILL for foci that prevents stacking STA for survivability), Global definitely overdid it. Perhaps intentionally, as it could then monetize the solution to its own problem.
This is why I keep insisting that mods should rectify Steam's issues, especially ones it apparently inherited wholesale from Global like that one. Feeds being a limiting and balancing factor is fine, but the experience you're describing is not fine.
In the meantime, I fear the only solution would be the one Global players devised; +stat items wherever possible, and +stat augments everywhere else. (Which a mod could also help facilitate, by eg allowing for stackable +stat augments on very feed-heavy pieces like Sets that go unused. But one can only hope.)
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true for the 2018 Steam version.

DokEnkephalin

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #8 on: Apr 19, 2024; 04:14 pm »
In the meantime, I fear the only solution would be the one Global players devised; +stat items wherever possible, and +stat augments everywhere else. (Which a mod could also help facilitate, by eg allowing for stackable +stat augments on very feed-heavy pieces like Sets that go unused. But one can only hope.)
This is the solution I've had to use just to equip bond class set. My most effective character is a zombieform summoner still using existential cores, which has +Evocation skill rate, but the combined +28 attribute is impossible to replace. Any potential replacement I've seen is loaded with stats, and especially skills, that I don't or can't use.

Bryan

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #9 on: Apr 19, 2024; 04:35 pm »
Existential Cores are great for that specific purpose, but they pretty much *must* be replaced on any build. Reason being, the Forge system does not increase levels but adds a % damage bonus to the initial base damage. So even though their low feeds and +AA both help, and their TAV bonus does help ZF builds, they'll end up miles behind any lv50+ foci damage-wise - and the difference is just too massive to justify them.
For reference, compare them to Valley of Death, a non-Mythic but still very decent foci for ZF builds. At +7, Cores will have ~78-92 damage while Valleys will have ~272-312. At the +15 cap, before mods, they'll land at ~339-400 vs ~1183-1357. It's just too massive on its own, *before* all other multipliers that then scale off that base damage.
Now yes, ideally you should be able to compensate for the damage loss in different ways, and even more so with a minion-based class. But no other damage booster scales as terrifically, and there's a practical limit to the benefit one gets from survivability alone. Case in point, my own Global builds had to ditch ZF in favor of toxic spells and crit to become able to clear Hell Dawn. Damage-wise, too, any stats saved that way and invested into ACC for CDB or STR for base damage will still not yield better results than simply using better foci, since they'll have a far lower base to scale off.
And speaking of, since you mention Set pieces. What I did was I kept a couple of Set pieces that granted crit, and then used the miniset and stat pieces. Most of the rest of the Set did not warrant its feeds, and simply pumping stats for ACC through stat pieces was far more optimal. Perhaps that could give you some ideas on how to approach the issue.
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2024; 04:38 pm by Bryan »
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true for the 2018 Steam version.

DokEnkephalin

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #10 on: Apr 20, 2024; 01:01 am »
How much more powerful does my zf summoner need to be? I can already clear all the bosses, and I've gotten up to Maijidori in the Tokyo arc. Of course I'm relying on minions because all my eq has bonuses for them, so I'm invested whether I want to be or not. If i can clear the real and final endgame with this, then I'll be satisfied. As far as my marksman build goes, the reason I started this topic in the first place, I'm just going to write that off. The post-Hell game has such an unfair bias against ranged attackers that it's pointless to play against such a stacked deck.

Bryan

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #11 on: Apr 20, 2024; 09:08 am »
Fair, if you're starting from a "how much is sufficient" position you may not need to concern yourself with ceilings given Steam's actually accessible content. All classes and Summoners in particular needed to mind ceilings in Global because of Hell Dawn and Hell Base Defense, mostly, neither of which had a low enough bar for minions (in this case) to suffice. But if you can't access it or don't prioritize it if you do, and your bar is simply beating Natan, you could likely get away with plenty of approaches like that.

Marksmen, speaking of, should also benefit plenty from stat pumps and high enchantments. They were among the hardest classes to play solo with, and Steam seems to have done them few favors. (Which also makes me wonder if mods should eventually retry the class merge approach, giving glass cannons a meat shield they'd need in singleplayer.) So since survivability cannot reach very meaningful levels, the best approach might as well be to pump damage.
What might make the choice easier is Set availability; if some pieces cannot be farmed at all, whether due to broken loot tables or Base Defense access, you'd practically have to resort to the next best thing. That is, +stat augments on a few pieces with base crit and a bunch of +stat pieces in other slots.
"Dream big and crash often"
-Omerta

List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true for the 2018 Steam version.

DokEnkephalin

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Re: higher feed costs?
« Reply #12 on: Apr 20, 2024; 04:56 pm »
I think the issue is the frequency of power of unavoidable attacks that strike instantly from any distance, which close-quarters fighters can soak up, but is devastating to ranged fighters. A meatshield hardly helps my engineer because these attack ignore minions. What's worse, they copied Lilith's moveset for 2 more Abyss bosses and 2 Westminster. Even if you stand right on top of her, she'll keep doing that same leaping stun/poison combo. Guzzling heals only puts off the inevitable, and burning through resurrects isn't very helpful strategy when you're re-summoning minions you're reliant on.